Marieke Eyskoot:
That every year, the meat of around eighteen billion animals that are killed for consumption is wasted. That mister Eyskoot made me an incredibly delicious meal from rescued vegetables. And that together with today’s guest I got to record a really great item about what you can still do with the roughly fourteen million sandwiches that are thrown away every single day in the Netherlands.

In our case, we made oliebollen. These are some of the sustainable things that moved me this week. But what motivates my guest when it comes to living more sustainably?

Welcome to This Is a Good Podcast for a More Sustainable Life. You may notice that I’m speaking English, which has everything to do with our amazing guest today. Thank you so much for tuning in. My name is Marieke Eyskoot. I’m a sustainable lifestyle expert, speaker, and presenter of events and TV programs.

From the Hortus Botanicus, the botanical gardens in Amsterdam, I sit down every week with a guest to explore what you encounter when you try to live more sustainably. Living a good life and doing good can go very well together, but what actually is a good choice? What works for you, what doesn’t? Is there something you feel ashamed of, or something that makes your heart beat faster for a better world?

We share tips and tricks, but more importantly we dive into the psychology behind it. Why do we do what we do? I hope you feel seen as a listener, and that this helps you move forward in your sustainable journey. I try to make that a little easier through this podcast, and for instance through my book This Is a Good Guide for a Sustainable Lifestyle, because we need everyone for this urgent transition towards a more just, climate-robust and sustainable future.

We need you, our listener, as well as today’s guest. And that is none other than the utterly brilliant Dan Karaty.

He is a massively talented dancer who performed with the likes of Britney Spears, went on to choreograph for her and for other stars such as Kylie Minogue and *NSYNC, and then became the judge we know and love from TV shows like So You Think You Can Dance and Holland’s Got Talent. He’s also an actor in very popular film and television productions.

But that’s not nearly all. At least as important to me is his work breaking the taboo around alcoholism and addiction in general. He wrote a gut-wrenchingly honest memoir about his life as a performer and an addict, and he hosts his own podcast If I’m Being Honest, about shame, struggle and sobriety.

He’s also a very dear friend of mine, and someone I deeply admire for his openness and bravery, among many other things.

What does all of this have to do with sustainability? Keep listening.

Welcome, Dan. Thank you so much for being here.

Dan Karaty:
That’s an introduction. Thank you.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Well deserved.

Dan Karaty:
Thank you. And this place is amazing.

Marieke Eyskoot:
What do you think of the atmosphere here?

Dan Karaty:
It’s beautiful. I’ve never been here before. I walked in thinking this is one of those hidden gems that not everybody knows about. I’ve been coming to Amsterdam for years and never knew this existed. And this is such a great spot to record a podcast. I love it.

Marieke Eyskoot:
If you’re listening, you can also watch us on YouTube. You can see our surroundings here, which are pretty spectacular. We also share snippets on social media.

We always start each episode with the sustainable struggle of the week. It can be something small, something you didn’t do very sustainably, or something you did consciously but didn’t enjoy. Something you struggled with.

Dan Karaty:
Oh yeah. This is something you know very well about me. You’ve tried to correct it, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it fails miserably.

As I was traveling here, I had a coffee on the way to the airport. Then I got delayed, so I grabbed another coffee at the airport. And when I landed, I grabbed yet another coffee.

Marieke Eyskoot:
All to-go cups.

Dan Karaty:
All to-go cups. And you tried to fix this by giving me a reusable cup, a foldable one, which is wonderful. I’ve used it many times. But I hadn’t traveled in about a month and a half, which is a long time for me. Everything felt rushed. I packed my bags and left, and I forgot the cup.

I knew immediately. I thought, this is not going to go over well, especially because I’m coming to see you. So yes, three coffee cups thrown in the trash. And honestly, that’s something I do more often than I should.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I forgive you everything, because I so admire you for drinking coffee now instead of something else. So I can never really say, “Dan, come on.” But I did give you a little gift as a small nudge.

Dan Karaty:
What’s amazing is that since the day we talked about this, when I had that giant Starbucks cup in front of you, and you said, “Are you mocking me?”, I’ve been aware of it ever since.

I still do it sometimes, but a lot less. And every time I carry one of those big cups, I think of you.

Marieke Eyskoot:
You drink a lot of coffee. I drink a lot of coffee. So you think of me every time?

Dan Karaty:
Yes. I’ll say that.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I’m honored. And I’m not about perfection. Doing it less is already a lot better.

Dan Karaty:
That was one of the things you really drove home for me. You’re not going to be perfect. Small steps still count. I’m far from perfect, but I’m definitely better.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And I think that’s really important to say out loud. We’re in an urgent situation, and yes, we really need to change our behaviour to protect the planet. But it’s not just about ticking boxes or doing things perfectly. It’s also about how these small changes slowly start to shift your entire mindset. And I think that’s something we’ll come back to later in this conversation.

But before we get ahead of ourselves, I also need to share my own struggle of the week. Because you said you’re not perfect, and of course neither am I.

My struggle this week was cling film. And for people who don’t know what that is, in Dutch we call it huishoudfolie. That horrible, sticky, transparent plastic that you wrap around food.

Dan Karaty:
Oh yeah. We call that Saran wrap.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Exactly. I absolutely hate it.

Dan Karaty:
It’s the worst.

Marieke Eyskoot:
It’s awful. And it’s also incredibly unsustainable, because you can’t really reuse it. I mean, who can use it even once properly?

Dan Karaty:
It drives me insane. You slide the cutter, try to tear it, and it’s already tangled. I end up crumpling it up, throwing it away, and starting over.

Marieke Eyskoot:
There you go. So I don’t use it. I don’t have it in my house, because I just can’t deal with it.

The reason it was a struggle this week is that, as you know, I’m a very avid walker. I go on early morning walks every day. It’s a huge part of my life. And I injured my foot, which is incredibly frustrating.

I went to the physiotherapist, and he taped my foot, which was a big relief. And then he said, “I want you to keep this tape on for at least five days. So when you shower, you should wrap cling film around it so it stays dry.”

And I nodded very enthusiastically and said, “Yes, of course.” But in my head I was thinking, “No. Not a chance.”

Dan Karaty:
Of course.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Because I don’t have cling film and I refuse to buy it. I’ve been here before, when you can’t get something wet. What I usually do is grab a plastic bag that I already have at home, for example one I use to freeze leftovers. I put my foot in the bag and try to seal it with a rubber band around my ankle.

Dan Karaty:
That sounds familiar.

Marieke Eyskoot:
It doesn’t work. At least not for me. So I’m in the shower, hopping around on one leg, trying not to get my foot wet, risking my life, honestly. And of course the bag slowly fills with water.

So I end up with a plastic food bag full of water attached to my foot. It’s really not ideal. I should have just used cling film. But I didn’t.

Dan Karaty:
I have a very clear visual of this.

Marieke Eyskoot:
That somehow makes it worse. So yes, that was my struggle of the week. Living sustainably isn’t always graceful.

Dan Karaty:
That’s definitely a dilemma.

Marieke Eyskoot:
It really is.

I was thinking about how we met. Do you remember?

Dan Karaty:
Oh yes. Very well.

Marieke Eyskoot:
We were guests on a TV show together. We were both being picked up in Amsterdam to be driven to the studio. And I remember initially saying no to the show because it was far away, I don’t drive, and I was finishing my book. It would have taken the entire day.

Then they called me back and said, “We’re picking up Dan Karaty by car anyway. Would you like to join?” And I said, “Yes. Absolutely. When?”

Dan Karaty:
That’s how it happened.

Marieke Eyskoot:
So we ended up in a car together, driving to 5 Uur Live. And for people who remember that show, it was kind of like an afternoon coffee date on television.

Dan Karaty:
I was in a very different place back then. That was when I was still in active addiction. Small talk was not my thing at all.

I could show up, sit at the table, promote whatever I was there to promote, say the right things, and then leave. But the conversations before and after? I didn’t want them. I didn’t feel comfortable with them.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And now you were stuck in a car.

Dan Karaty:
Exactly. And please don’t take this personally, but I felt trapped. Luckily my manager Michael was there, and he became the buffer. You and Michael got along famously, chatting away, and that took all the pressure off me. I could just sit there quietly.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I do remember that.

Dan Karaty:
Looking back, it’s a perfect example of how my life worked back then. You were trying to engage me in a very kind way, and I was giving you nothing back. I’d answer your questions briefly and try to end the conversation.

On the show itself, though, I could switch on. There was banter, there was back and forth.

Marieke Eyskoot:
There definitely was.

Dan Karaty:
But in the car, where you could actually make a real connection, I couldn’t do it. And I didn’t want to do it.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And yet, here we are. Because something still clicked. Especially on the way back. We’d already broken the ice on the show, joked about your flying habits, laughed a bit.

You were working on Dance Dance Dance at the time, which I absolutely loved. The concept of that show felt like it was made for me. Patrick Martens, who is also a guest on this podcast, is my neighbour, and we always said, “This show is made for us.”

Dan Karaty:
I remember that.

Marieke Eyskoot:
You said to me, “You should do this. You’d be great on it. It would also help bring sustainability issues to a big audience.” And I went home thinking, “Did he really just say that?”

Dan Karaty:
Michael was incredibly impressed with you.

Marieke Eyskoot:
He was so kind. The next morning I got a call from the production saying I was high on the list. I spent weeks trying to find a partner. Patrick had already been asked by someone else. I asked Thekla Reuten, but she couldn’t do it.

I would have done almost anything.

Dan Karaty:
You would have been fantastic on that show. Truly. You wanted it. Most celebrities have to be convinced. You were eager. That’s what you want.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Just the opportunity to learn from those professionals would have been priceless.

Dan Karaty:
And to recreate those iconic performances. I loved that part of the show.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I’m such an MTV kid as well. I grew up watching all of that, and being able to recreate those performances, it’s just magic. Anyway, we’re definitely showing our age here, but I’m very happy to be forty-six. Something changed though, over time.

We stayed in touch, even though at that moment you weren’t really in a place where connecting deeply with people was something you were able to do. But we always had some kind of line between us. And now, I actually feel like we’re really good friends, because we sort of grew through all of that together.

Dan Karaty:
My alcoholism really went off a cliff during the pandemic. I went to rehab almost three years ago now. I still can’t believe that. And I got sober.

When you decide you’re not going to drink anymore, you think that’s it. You think, “Okay, I’m just removing alcohol from my life, and with it, all the fun.” That’s how it feels in your head. But what you don’t realize is that removing alcohol actually opens up the world.

Marieke Eyskoot:
It changes everything.

Dan Karaty:
It changed the most important thing for me: my relationships. With my family, my wife, my kids. With everyone around me.

You and I stayed in touch before, but we didn’t really connect deeply until I got sober. Then we actually sat down and had real conversations.

And beyond relationships, it also changed how I looked at everything else in my life. I had been living a life of excess. Not just drinking, but excess in clothes, cars, vacations, the size of my house. Everything was too much.

I was trying to fill something inside myself that was empty. It didn’t work, but I kept trying. I saw something and thought, “I need that.” And I genuinely believed I deserved it.

Marieke Eyskoot:
There was a void there.

Dan Karaty:
Exactly. I was unhappy, and I tried to fill that unhappiness with stuff. Getting sober made me wake up and realize that I don’t need all of this, and most of it doesn’t even make me happy.

It also made me less selfish. It stopped being all about me. That was a huge wake-up call.

Marieke Eyskoot:
What strikes me is that this isn’t just something people in addiction will recognize. I think many people feel that emptiness and are told by society that buying things will fix it.

We’re constantly told that consumption will make us happier, better, more fulfilled. And very often, the opposite is true.

Dan Karaty:
You can’t have everything. And if you fall into that cycle of “I need those sneakers, I need that bag, I need that vacation,” there will always be something else. You can’t find happiness in stuff.

Marieke Eyskoot:
It’s a distraction. It keeps you from really looking at what you need.

Dan Karaty:
Exactly. And advertising is incredibly good at convincing us.

It’s the same with alcohol. Movies and commercials tell you that you need alcohol to relax, to celebrate, to have fun with friends. They never show the downside.

They don’t show you how you feel the next day, or what it does to your relationships, or your bank account.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And they never show the long-term impact.

Dan Karaty:
Never.

For me, a big turning point was realizing what example I was setting for my kids. I learned so much from what I saw growing up. And suddenly I saw myself through their eyes.

I had this amazing car, and I still wanted another one. Why? That question started to haunt me.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And that realization also played a big role in your decision to go to rehab.

Dan Karaty:
Absolutely. I knew what I was doing to myself and to my wife. But when I realized my kids could see it and that it was affecting them, that was the moment I knew I needed help.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I’m incredibly proud of you.

Dan Karaty:
Thank you.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And I also want to say that even back then, in that car, something of who you really are already showed. Otherwise we wouldn’t still be here, having this conversation. There was always a strong core in you that wanted to engage with life and do good.

Dan Karaty:
I wanted to connect. The want was there. But the fear was stronger.

I was afraid conversations would get too personal, and I didn’t want to go there. Fear kept me from engaging, even though the desire was there.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And I think I sensed that too.

Dan Karaty:
Yeah.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Let’s move into some of the sustainability questions we ask every guest. One of them is: what is your sustainable “do”? A positive experience, something that makes you happy, something you’d recommend to others.

Dan Karaty:
My car.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I knew it.

Dan Karaty:
I was terrified of change. I hated it. When electric cars started becoming a thing, I decided they weren’t for me without doing any research at all.

I drove gas guzzlers for years. Big ones. One after the other. My wife finally pushed me to look into a Tesla. I know I’m privileged to be able to afford one, and I acknowledge that.

I tested it and thought, this is the best car I’ve ever driven. So I got one. I’ve had it for over two years now, and it’s by far my favorite car ever.

I don’t even think about the environmental benefit most of the time. It’s just a better experience.

Marieke Eyskoot:
That’s such an important point. We’re often told that sustainable living means sacrificing comfort, joy, pleasure.

Dan Karaty:
Exactly. And this showed me that trying something new can actually be better than what you’re used to.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And there’s a ripple effect.

Dan Karaty:
Totally. My siblings all questioned my choice. Then they drove the car. Now one of them owns one too, and the others are open to it. One change spreads.Marieke Eyskoot:
That ripple effect is exactly why individual choices matter. Someone sees you do something differently, realizes it’s possible, and then maybe dares to take that step as well.

And yes, privilege plays a role. I think it’s important to acknowledge that. But at the same time, I also believe that people who can carry the weight, should carry it. If you don’t have to worry about food on the table or paying rent, then you are in a position to lead. Change needs to grow before it can become accessible to everyone.

Dan Karaty:
That makes sense. If you can afford it, do it. Spend the money and help push the transition forward.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Exactly. That’s a good way to spend well-earned money.

The flip side of a sustainable “do” is a sustainable “don’t”, or maybe a dilemma. Something that feels really hard or unresolved.

Dan Karaty:
Flying. How much I fly.

Marieke Eyskoot:
There it is.

Dan Karaty:
I’ve been on airplanes constantly since I was eighteen. I’m forty-seven now. That’s almost my entire adult life. I started traveling for work in the US, then all over the world. And even when I’m home, I’m flying to California all the time.

I can’t do my job without flying. That’s the dilemma.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And to be clear, you didn’t fly here just for this podcast.

Dan Karaty:
No, this trip was already planned.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Good to clarify.

You sometimes say, “The plane is going anyway, with or without me.” But if enough people didn’t think that way, the plane wouldn’t go. That logic can actually be flipped quite easily.

Dan Karaty:
I know. And when you say it like that, it’s hard to argue with.

Marieke Eyskoot:
The bigger question remains: how do you do your job differently? That’s not an easy one. But I do think it’s important to realize that the power is closer to you than you might think.

Dan Karaty:
This is where sacrifice comes in. Do I sacrifice my job? Do we move the family? I don’t know. It’s really difficult.

I’m aware of it, though. People message me about it sometimes on social media, asking if I really need to fly that much.

Marieke Eyskoot:
How does that make you feel?

Dan Karaty:
Honestly, it feels like getting hit in the face. No one likes that. It makes me hyper aware.

When I started this career, I loved traveling. I wanted it. Now that I’m older, with two kids and a wife I love, I don’t want to travel as much. It does make me question everything.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I think you’re more powerful than you realize. The world is changing. The urgency is much clearer now. Conversations like this weren’t as possible a few years ago.

Dan Karaty:
Maybe. I’d love to do it differently. I would happily travel less. But right now, I don’t get to call the shots.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I still think you’re selling yourself short a bit there.

Let me ask you this: is there something that really drives you in this process? A realization, a thought, something that keeps pushing you forward?

Dan Karaty:
The difference between need and want.

For a long time, those were the same thing to me. I thought I needed everything I wanted. That came from a sense of entitlement.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Where do you think that came from?

Dan Karaty:
Ego. I thought I deserved the success, the money, the house, the car. And when I got sober, that entitlement fell away.

I looked around and thought, I don’t even want most of this. I’m happier in sweatpants and a T-shirt than in designer clothes I pretended to like.

Marieke Eyskoot:
You simplified.

Dan Karaty:
A lot. And I’m not suffering. We’re doing fine. But Christmas, for example, used to be excessive. So many gifts. The kids didn’t even care about most of it.

Now we focus on what they really want, what they’ll actually use. It changes everything. Appreciation, gratitude, connection.

Marieke Eyskoot:
It’s a different love language.

Dan Karaty:
Exactly.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Is there still something that worries you? A sustainable struggle that hasn’t been solved?

Dan Karaty:
My kids. Always my kids.

They learn from what I do, not what I say. And there are so many small things. Paper towels, for instance. I go through them constantly.

It seems small, but it adds up. And I think, what am I teaching them?

Marieke Eyskoot:
And at the same time, isn’t it also empowering to realize how big your influence is?

Dan Karaty:
It is. When I think about what I’ve taught them through my sobriety, through how I treat people, that feels huge.

I just wish change wasn’t so much talk and so little action, especially from people in power. If they actually did the hard things, more people would follow.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And someone else is watching you in the same way.

Dan Karaty:
That’s a good point.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I always ask listeners to send in questions, and there’s one I really wanted to discuss with you because it also touches on something we’ve been circling around already. This question comes from Sarah Doubeldam.

Sarah Doubeldam (ingesproken):
Hi Dan and Marieke. According to recent research by Follow the Money, a respected investigative journalism platform, part of the leather used in popular Adidas sneakers like the Gazelle and Spezial contributes to deforestation and modern slavery in Brazil. As a passionate sports lover, how do you see the responsibility of these brands, and what do you think your own responsibility is as a fan?

Marieke Eyskoot:
Thanks so much, Sarah. This research came out very recently and shows how leather used in some Adidas sneaker lines is directly linked to deforestation and modern slavery in the Amazon.

I wanted to talk to you about sports anyway, because we both love sports. And sports is such an interesting space when it comes to sustainability. The influence is enormous: clothing, sponsorships, commercial interests, role models, everything.

Dan Karaty:
Absolutely. And the influence athletes have is huge.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Exactly. You can enter the topic from any angle and you’ll find sustainability questions. For me, being part of a team also teaches values that we really need in society: taking care of each other, responsibility, not leaving anyone behind.

So, coming back to Sarah’s question: how do you see the responsibility of brands like Adidas, and your own role as a fan?

Dan Karaty:
I’ll be honest. As a fan, I try to separate the sport from everything around it. I watch sports for entertainment. It’s my escape.

If I start pulling on all the threads, from brand ethics to player behavior, it becomes impossible to watch anything. Domestic violence, corruption, exploitation, it’s everywhere. So, right or wrong, I choose to just watch the game.

Marieke Eyskoot:
That makes sense emotionally.

Dan Karaty:
As for brands like Adidas or Nike, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a big brand that isn’t guilty of something. So where do you draw the line?

Athletes have to decide what they put their face on. That’s their responsibility. For consumers, it’s harder. If you need a running shoe today, what’s the ethical choice? I honestly don’t know.

Marieke Eyskoot:
There are alternatives, but they’re smaller and much less visible. I can share some in the show notes. The power of the big brands is enormous, and that makes it really hard for others to compete.

Dan Karaty:
And when you wear those brands, you’re kind of an ambassador for them.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Exactly. You’re a walking advertisement. You influence your kids, your friends, your neighborhood. In that sense, there’s not that much difference between a fan and a paid athlete, except that the fan doesn’t get paid.

Dan Karaty:
That’s a painful way to look at it.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I love sports deeply. I grew up watching sports with my dad, waking up in the middle of the night for the Olympics. Those are magical memories.

I think it is possible to still enjoy sports and at the same time push for change. I would enjoy it even more if I knew change was actually happening, instead of being silenced.

Dan Karaty:
Yeah, that’s fair.

Marieke Eyskoot:
We always ask our guests to pass on a question to the next guest. But before that, you received a question from chef and fellow BinnensteBuiten presenter Nadia Zerouali. It’s about food.

Dan Karaty:
Of course it is.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Nadia asked: are there foods you don’t eat anymore, or foods you do eat, to live more sustainably?

Dan Karaty:
I wouldn’t say I eat differently because of sustainability. But I do eat a lot less red meat now.

Not for environmental reasons, but because of how it makes me feel physically. If I eat steak, I feel it in my back the next day when I work out. So I don’t seek it out anymore.

Marieke Eyskoot:
This is such an interesting overlap, though. Finding choices that make you feel better and are better for the planet.

Dan Karaty:
Exactly. Since getting sober, I’ve cut out so much processed food. I eat much cleaner. And that affects everyone around me too.

Marieke Eyskoot:
And in doing so, you’re probably already reducing your impact quite a lot.

Dan Karaty:
I think so. Just looking at what we bring home from the grocery store now compared to before, it’s a world of difference.

Marieke Eyskoot:
If you could pass on a question to presenter, actor and musician Eric Corton, what would you ask?

Dan Karaty:
Eric is also sober, and I’m curious how sobriety changed the way he consumes things. For me, it changed my sense of entitlement and my need for excess.

I’d love to know what getting sober did for him in terms of clothes, cars, food, consumption in general.

Marieke Eyskoot:
That’s a beautiful question. I’ll ask him. And if you want to hear the answer, listen to the episode with Eric Corton.

Marieke Eyskoot:
We’re almost at the end. Is there something you’re taking away from this conversation?

Dan Karaty:
Every time I talk to you, on or off the record, you make me think differently about my choices.

One thing that really stuck with me today is sports brands. I suddenly realized that almost everything I wear has a Nike or Adidas logo on it. I’m not saying I’ll cut it all out, but I want to be more aware of what I’m endorsing.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Awareness is a powerful first step.

Dan Karaty:
The biggest thing for me is not being afraid of change anymore. I’m not saying I’ll fix everything, but I’m open. I’m willing to look at possibilities.

Marieke Eyskoot:
Thank you so much. And if people want to follow you, where can they find you?

Dan Karaty:
On Instagram at Dan Karaty, on TikTok as Dan Karaty Official, and my podcast If I’m Being Honest is probably where you get the most honest look into my life.

Marieke Eyskoot:
One of my big dreams is to dance with you one day. Maybe even on TikTok.

Dan Karaty:
That would be amazing.

Marieke Eyskoot:
I’ll put all the links in the show notes. This was This Is a Good Podcast for a More Sustainable Life, recorded at the Hortus Botanicus in Amsterdam.

Until the next episode, thank you so much for listening, for sharing, and for being part of the change.